Updates from February, 2014 Toggle Comment Threads | Keyboard Shortcuts

  • John 10:24 am on February 20, 2014 Permalink | Reply
    Tags: a current affair,   

    John Holmes Plug For “A Current Affair” TV Show 

    It’s just a plug. I will try to find the full segment. I used to love this TV show.

    April 28, 1988 – A Current Affair hosted by Maury Povich. The plug is at the :35 second mark.

     
  • John 7:23 am on February 20, 2014 Permalink | Reply
    Tags: ,   

    Thorson’s “Afterword” In New Candelabra Edition Full Of Crap 

    So much revisionist history that it will make your head spin. Typical Thorson.

    I guess that with the success of the film, Behind The Candelabra, the book by Scott has been given a new printing. Thus, we have an Afterword added by Scott Thorson. It is no surprise to you, but he is so full of it.

    First of all, he observes all of the same old tired yet crooked “facts” about Wonderland and Nash. Scott also claims that the crackhead who shot him at the motel in Jacksonville was a hitman sent by Nash. Here is a link to an article regarding that incident. Melvin Jerome Owen was a career petty criminal and crackhead. He was just an addict who had been either partying with Thorson or knew he had drugs and attempted to rob him. Thorson may have been more slippery and teflon than Nash or Holmes in the past, but not anymore — since Scott is headed to prison.

    Nash was acquitted, not convicted due to Scott’s testimony. Ridiculous!

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    • Mark C 8:43 am on February 20, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      I don’t know if it just me or I think Scott or Jess what ever he going by now. I think he wants us to rate him on the John Holmes stretch the truth meter. Well that don’t sound too good but I think you know what I mean. I try put this nice as I can. Trouble with John Holmes name there a lot of jokes still out about him. Even in these days & times Holmes still pretty famous.

      • John 9:44 am on February 20, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        Yes, the surname Holmes is legendary now days. Before JH, did people go around saying “Hey, what’s up Holmes!” and stuff like that. He really did cement that name in history. One cannot see a person with that last name and not think of the guy. It’s pretty bizarre.

        • criticextraordinaire 8:44 pm on February 20, 2014 Permalink

          Well it’s good to see Johnny get his due. It’s shame that he got involved with drugs though. If he had dodged that bullet he’d still be at the top of the adult film world and would be worth a bloody fortune, distributing product from his own website, johnnywadd.com , as well as streaming video, merchandising, and the occasional *ahem” personal services. Not to mention the income stream provided by the information in that gold-encrusted foot locker.

    • Mike 9:00 pm on February 20, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      “What’s up Holmes” in that context is short for “homeboy”. I guess in theory it should be “homes”.

    • Mark C 2:51 pm on February 21, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Appears Holmes wish has can true, Not part of him after his death ended up in a Pickle Jar somewhere on the wall of a Bar or Nightclub. Or its sure not shown up anywhere yet I know of.

  • John 10:27 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply
    Tags: gay pimp, , scotty bowers   

    Holmes Discussed In Gay Pimp’s Tell-All Book 

    First of all, this book has some terrible reviews. Second, the facts and claims about Holmes are way off, based on what a true Wonderland aficionado now knows about John Holmes. Holmes was not in tons of gay porno movies. Well, read it for yourself. This whole sub-chapter on JH sounds like fiction in order to fluff up (no pun) this guy’s book.

    Full Service: My Adventures in Hollywood and the Secret Sex Lives of the Stars

    by Scotty Bowers.

    Note:  George Cukor was a legendary Hollywood director. He died in 1983 at about 85 years old. Thus, it sounds fishy to me.

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    • Jill C. Nelson 10:57 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      The only comment I can make about this is that when Jennifer and I scoured all resources for evidence of Holmes’s gay loops and films, we came up (mostly) empty. For the book, we screened and reviewed the few gay films/loops we were able to get our hands on – but we concluded, based upon not only our own research but also by talking to people in the know — such as people like Joel Sussman, who is probably Holmes’s oldest friend in the business, there just isn’t that much gay material out there. In Holmes’s own words (told to us by one of Holmes’s closest 1980s friends, Buck Adams), when asked if he was bisexual, Holmes replied, “Yeah, I’m bisexual. If you buy me, I’m sexual.” That statement pretty well summed it up.Holmes was not gay. but he was an opportunist.

    • dreamweaverjenn 11:32 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      I can’t help but be amused. First, having grown up in a military family this guy would have been beaten to a pulp (no pun intended). I’m not saying it’s right and I have tons of gay friends and family members but a marine back in those days???? Very hard to believe and therefore it was hard for me to believe anything else this guy had to say. I realize it COULD have happened but I’m just having a hard time believing this guy. Sorry, just my observation. ;o)

    • Jim 12:48 pm on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      I think Jill has it exactly right with her quote of Holmes “If you buy me, I’m sexual.” I really don’t think Holmes even enjoyed sex (with anyone) in the latter part of his life. It was just simply a vehicle to get money from people so he could finance his out of control drug habit. Kind of like when somebody steals to support a drug habit. It’s not that they necessarily enjoy the physical act of stealing; it’s just that stealing is the only way they can continue to finance the habit.

    • John 2:17 pm on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      I just think that John was not turning any gay tricks until his serious coke habit, in the early 80s – maybe the very late 70s. If John did attempt turn a trick with the elderly Cukor, then how much was that going to net him to buy coke? $200? And is an 80+ year old man doing coke too? Lots of questions.

    • criticextraordinaire 6:01 pm on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      That whole story is complete BS. He says “I did not arrange tricks for John once he became a big porn star”. Problem is… John did not get involved with drugs until AFTER he hit it big in porn. This guy’s story has about as much veracity as that lady who said she was hiding in Ron Launius’ closet during the Wonderland murders.

      • John 7:43 am on February 20, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        Yes, and I doubt John was doing gay tricks in the 60s.

    • jimmy---chicago 6:29 pm on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Holmes could not get fully hard even before his introduction to coke .I wish we could get some answers from dawn or susan his wife about their sex life .What was their first reaction to his 14 inches

      • criticextraordinaire 5:36 am on February 20, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        Cass Paley said that he once saw John with full wood and “it was scary”.

      • Jill C. Nelson 9:46 am on February 20, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        I always find this observation to be interesting. On camera, Holmes was usually able to achieve a full erection — the difference being that because of the size of his equipment, it pointed downward instead of up when he was fully erect. His first film with Bob Chinn titled ‘Johnny Wadd’ shows Holmes completely hard — for him, and it is scary stuff. Chinn said that the only time he remembers John having any difficulty was in the last film they made together, Prisoner of Paradise, and that was because of his coke habit. If you take a look at any of the cameos Holmes did in the 80’s for his and Amerson’s company Penguin, it’s scary still.

    • John 6:52 am on February 20, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      For the title of this post, I wanted to convey that the pimp catered to gay customers, not that he was gay. I don’t know if he was or not. “Not that there’s anything wrong with it” (Seinfeld)

  • John 9:59 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply
    Tags: , van halen   

    Nash Mentioned In Van Halen Book 

    The book is titled “Van Halen 101” by Abel Sanchez. Foreword by Brian May.

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    • localarts 11:55 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Van Halen’s inspiration for “Runnin With The Devil”

    • jimmy---chicago 6:23 pm on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Vince Neil of Motley Crue mentions him in his book .He just says he new eddie nash from playing starwood .But I am sure he was known by every hair band of that time from L.A. especially since eddie was a dealer but also ather club owners delt drugs too

  • John 12:15 pm on February 18, 2014 Permalink | Reply
    Tags:   

    Laurie Holmes Article From 1998 

    This is a classic article from the Las Vegas Review-Journal. It is great and worth archiving here on the blog. I would like to go to one of these conventions one day, walk around and people watch. I’m sure it’s fascinating. I bet Screech from Saved By The Bell has his own autograph-signing booth.

    I wonder what happened in Rio Rancho that made Laurie want to move? Maybe Jill can tell us. Val Kilmer lives in New Mexico also.

    * * * * * * * * * * *

    Sunday, July 12, 1998

    Holmes shares story of her famous husband in book `Porn King’

    By Joan Patterson 
    Review-Journal

    It was not a saint’s life, but Laurie Holmes believes it’s time to get the story straight.

    Holmes was in town last week during the Video Software Dealers Association convention with copies of a new book detailing the life of her late husband, John Holmes, the star of adult films during the 1970s and early ’80s. Holmes appeared in more than 2,000 productions, such as “Insatiable” and “Tropic of Passion.”

    The book, “Porn King: Autobiography of John C. Holmes,” is based on tape-recorded interviews between John Holmes and author Fred Basten beginning in 1985. The recordings, Laurie Holmes says, tell the real story of a man often misunderstood by the public and those in the pornography industry. Her own recollections of her husband’s final months are written in the book’s epilogue as told to Basten.

    “(Holmes) was a very interesting man, without a doubt one of the most intelligent human beings I ever met. … Not to say he was perfect. He made a lot of mistakes, but he faces what he did,” says Holmes, a former adult film actress.

    She says she held onto the book manuscript for several years, believing the public was not ready to hear the frank story of a college student who enters the world of pornography in the 1960s, becomes addicted to cocaine and eventually dies at age 43 after contracting the AIDS virus. But the 1997 release of the film “Boogie Nights,” which she says is “very loosely” based on her husband’s life, has stirred public interest in John Holmes’ career. She sees the movie as a chance to set the record straight about her husband.

    “People have been real curious about his story so it’s time to release (the book). … He was not the villain people made him out to be. He wasn’t a saint, but I’ve heard so many wrongs about him over the years,” she says. “He wasn’t gay. He wasn’t a snitch. He wasn’t a junkie.”

    Holmes also wants the public to be aware of the current “outbreak” of AIDS within the adult entertainment industry because of unprotected sex. John Holmes’ death from the AIDS virus in 1988 is detailed in the biography and linked to his work in the adult film industry. Rumors that he contracted the virus through intravenous drug use are wrong, she says.

    Despite the death of such a well-known adult film star, the heterosexual pornography industry was slow to institute safe sex requirements such as condom use. It was not until April, according to an Associated Press report, that several major producers of adult films started requiring actors to wear condoms. The action was taken after three actresses in the industry tested positive for AIDS earlier this year, the report states.

    Laurie Holmes, who is 35, lived in Boulder City from 1976 to 1980. She made her first X-rated film in Las Vegas at the age of 18. It was called “The Greatest Little Cathouse in Las Vegas.”

    She met John Holmes in San Francisco about one year later while they were working on a film together called “Marathon.” They remained close for five years, then married in 1987 at Las Vegas’ Little Chapel of the Flowers.

    The marriage was kept secret, Laurie Holmes says, by her husband who was “a very private person.” When he died, many acquaintances in the industry and journalists reporting on his death were surprised to hear about Laurie Holmes, the wife.

    She stopped making adult films in the early ’80s. After her husband’s death, Holmes moved back to her home state of New Mexico. After what she considers an unwelcome stay in Rio Rancho, she moved to nearby Albuquerque and worked as an exotic dancer.

    Holmes, who still lives in Albuquerque, is now devoting herself full time to a company she created earlier this year, Johnny Wadd Inc. It is named after the alias used in several of her husband’s films. The company distributes videos of his films and published the recently released biography.

     
    • Jill C. Nelson 6:08 pm on February 18, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      “I wonder what happened in Rio Rancho that made Laurie want to move? Maybe Jill can tell us. Val Kilmer lives in New Mexico also.”

      Laurie tried to integrate into the “real” world in Rio Rancho after Holmes’s death but it wasn’t to be. People there figured out who she was and that Holmes was her late husband. She left town and began work as a stripper as the article stated. In the late 1990s, she returned to adult films for a brief period (where she met her second husband, Tony Montana) before making her final departure. During her years as an exotic dancer, Laurie resorted to drugs and alcohol to sustain, and has been clean from drugs since 2007. She drinks very little.

      Yes, Val Kilmer does live in New Mexico. Laurie met Kilmer at the Wonderland premiere which she attended with Ron Jeremy. Needless to say, Laurie didn’t care for the movie and left about fifteen minutes in to attend a birthday party she’d been invited to. When Kilmer learned that Laurie had badmouthed the film, he refused to sign an autograph for Jeremy, much to Ron’s dismay.

      I realize this is more information than what you’d asked, but it’s connected in one way or another. 🙂

      • Bobby 12:53 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        As always thanks for your excellent input Jill. While “Wonderland” isn’t without its problems I’d hardly consider it a walk out type flick! I’ve seen ten times worse films and still didn’t walk out on them. Would be keen to know what Laurie hated so much about it.. must’ve been something very personal that upset her immensely – can you shed some light on this?
        As an interesting side note check out this photo I stumbled across of Tony Montana.. Nice shirt!:

        • Jill C. Nelson 10:47 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink

          What John described below falls in line with some of the reasons why Laurie was unable to sit through the film. Laurie’s recollections of Holmes are not the snivelling (her word) individual that Cox and Kilmer imagined for their interpretation. (Plus, yes, as John touched on, Kilmer appeared too healthy.) I think it’s important to remember though (and Laurie understands this) that the window of time depicted in the film is a very different period of time than when Laurie was with John. A desperado crackhead is not the man she knew.

      • John 7:55 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        I don’t think I could sit through a movie either, if I had known a famous person, whom I knew from a different point of view. Also, Val’s chubby cheeks and round face just did not do it for me as him being John Holmes. Holmes also had more of a natural afro curl, and not some cheesy kinky perm, LOL.

        • Bobby 10:24 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink

          F’sure John, they should’ve gone with a complete unknown to play Holmes. Kilmer had the jawline and put in a fairly decent performance but that’s about it. After seeing Christian Bale in ‘American Hustle’ I’m convinced he’d be perfect to play the older Steve Jobs in the upcoming biopic… IMHO a good example of a big star actually looking the part. Dunno what they were thinking with Kilmer though!

  • John 8:27 am on February 18, 2014 Permalink | Reply
    Tags: julia negron   

    Neighbors Speak About The Wonderland Murders 

    This article from July 2, 1981 does not mention movers finding the bodies, but rather “friends stopping by”. If only so many authors and writers over the years had dug a bit deeper, then the movers thing would not have been publicized so much.

    A few neighbors also talk about the house and that night. But, when you talk to neighbors about a crime they always say different stuff, whether it’s time-stamping a scream, or making vague comments about the victims. One lady awoke, and actually walked out on her balcony, but did not see anything and went back to bed. The man taken from the scene was Julia Negron’s friend, “B”. He was released at the scene after sitting in a squad car for a few minutes.

    Also, LAPD Sgt. Michael Butler needs to make up his mind on the cause of death.

    In tomorrow’s post, you get to hear from a neighbor who says “police have been there before because of all of the violence”. (?) I have read about the partying, but did the cops really come for fighting and violence. I would suspect it was men fighting (i.e., Ron blew his lid with some guy and beat ’em up).

    UPI Article. July 3, 1981.

    UPI Article. July 2, 1981.

     
    • Pat Fontenot 11:48 am on February 18, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Would you happen to know Nurse Michael’s last name…Gary Fontenot’s room mate during this time.

      • John 12:50 pm on February 18, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        No Pat, but I can check with Lee, the Starwood guy who worked for Gary.

        John

    • dreamweaverjenn 4:28 pm on February 18, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Another reminder to me on how brutal this murder really was…..

    • jimmy---chicago 9:21 pm on February 18, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      John the name of “b” is in the negrone book you bought under the chapter “Beaten To Death With Baseball Bats” Im sure ronnie had some tussles especially with holmes but when you have parties with lots of people with drugs and alcohol fights always break out .Alcohol is the main culpret . If the parties were anything like the movie’s portrayel you had all kinds of creatures showing up from rich rock star wives to bikers to who ever . Pretty wild scene

      • John 7:23 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        Yes, I know his name but didn’t want to post it. He’s some sort of music big shot.

    • Bobby 1:43 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      “She heard a woman screaming ‘Oh God, don’t kill me'”.. That just about chilled me to the bone! One can only assume they were Joy Miller’s final words before dying a horribly painful death. The severity of the crime really hits home when you read something like that. So very sad.
      I very much doubt that the house was a party place like depicted in the movie. I recall Julia Negron supporting this claim too and it just makes sense that Ron, Billy, Joy et al would’ve tried to keep a low profile with all the nefarious goings on. It was a drug house after all, with a fairly extensive clientele by the looks of things, so I doubt they’d want to advertise that fact to their neighbours.
      Also, just how popular was primal scream therapy back then? The fact that some neighbours thought it was that rather than someone actually crying murder just floors me.. What the hell?!

      • John 7:25 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        I think that if people were stopping by a lot and some crashing at the house, then there would have been some noise and chatter. The homes are so close together. Any “noisy parties” would just be that much louder, even if there were only 4 or 5 people, with music playing. It would sound like a big party. Those homes are 10′ apart!

    • jimmy---chicago 7:04 pm on February 20, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      is there supposed to be a part 2 to this

    • aitchcs 6:55 pm on December 8, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Where did I read that Christina Applegate lived close by and well remembers the mayhem with police and traffic after the murders.

  • John 11:41 am on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply
    Tags: ,   

    2010: Dawn Schiller Talks To Radio Show 

    Susan Murphy Milano (RIP) was a radio show host, blogger, activist and author for topics like violence towards women, stalking, child abuse. You can check out Dawn’s interview and discussion below. Susan Milano died two years ago, but thankfully she got this interview down in the books. (and no, Susan Milano is not Susan Launius, they just have the same maiden name)

    Susan and Dawn speak for about an hour, and topics are of course:  John Holmes, Dawn’s early childhood, her father, mother, human trafficking.

    Thrown into the waiting arms of adult film star and predator, John Holmes, Dawn Schiller survived years of abuse, substance addiction and human trafficking. Dawn survived the bloody and tragic “Wonderland” murders, and was victimized again when law enforcement claimed her as a wanted fugitive. We will discuss her journey for the entire hour and her work with the phenomena of “Throwaway Teens” and how to identify, recognize and save others before they become a statistic.

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/susanmurphymilano/2010/02/10/the-susan-murphy-milano-show

     
    • Brandy 11:42 am on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      I think I’ve heard enough of Dawn Schiller for a lifetime.

    • Jill C. Nelson 4:31 pm on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      “He was quite a romantic. He set it up at the beach, that it just so happened that my sister wasn’t there and he asked me to go camping by myself. It was like we both knew that it was the night.
      We went to Malibu, Zuma Beach and went to Leo Carrillo, a campsite there. It was a full moon, low in the sky. It was perfect and he was very quiet. I can remember just watching him as I walked along the beach, sat on the rocks and watched the moon. It was very magical. Without saying anything, he got down from that rock, took my hand and walked to the van. That was the night. He was extremely gentle and just awesome. I felt as if I was his newborn child or something — that’s how precious he treated me.” — Dawn Schiller, John Holmes: A Life Measured in Inches © 2008, Jennifer Sugar and Jill C. Nelson (original dialogue and script text from WADD: The Life & Times of John C. Holmes, provided by Hustler Video.)

      No matter how anyone might feel about the action itself, I post this excerpt above simply as an illustration of the contrasting depictions (by Schiller) of this night shared between Schiller and Holmes in the interview she did for WADD, compared to TRTW. It seems that every time the story is described, it changes somewhat. The event itself and the emotions expressed between the WADD interview and TRTW are quite different. I remember when I read about this experience in Dawn’s book, how surprised I was by the way in which the episode and her reaction to it had been adjusted. It’s one of many events that have been tweaked. This is why Dawn did not want Sugar and I to use her WADD transcripts for our bio.

    • John 5:19 pm on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Thanks Jill. I was going to comment on conflicting statements about Dawn’s time in Florida, post Wonderland… But I didn’t have my references handy. As discissed before on this blog, the selling of Dawn on the beach to Tricks and Big Marge “saving her” and the LA gumshoes tracking her tothe strip club. Too many versions of events floating around from Dawn.

      • criticextraordinaire 6:36 pm on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        I think that was Big Rosie and some dude named Joe from the snack shop at the Fountainhead. Now there would be a real score, if somebody could track them down to get their version of the happenings in Miami back then.

        I wonder if Dawn has enough material for another book?

        • John 5:37 pm on February 18, 2014 Permalink

          Yes, Joe and also the Cuban guy who was a male stripper who also stayed at Fountainhead. When John could not find steady work the stripper guy allegedly let Dawn clean his room a few times… Luckily cig’s and beer were cheap back then. Crazy times!!

      • Jill C. Nelson 10:46 am on February 18, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        “As discissed before on this blog, the selling of Dawn on the beach to Tricks and Big Marge “saving her” and the LA gumshoes tracking her tothe strip club. Too many versions of events floating around from Dawn.”

        Yes, and the story about “Louise the stripper.” I don’t doubt that a stripper named Louise factored into the events in Florida, but again the version in TRTW is not exactly how detectives Lange and Tomlinson described it to us.
        It’s always best to stick to one truthful account of a story, especially when there are people still alive who can attest otherwise.

    • jimmy---chicago 5:49 pm on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Dosent statutory rape come into play with those two at least in the beginning

      • John 8:02 am on February 18, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        I guess in those days it was a slap on the wrist, but if Holmes were alive, they could still go after him maybe? The thing is, I think Dawn chased him just as much as he chased her. I’m reminded of my little sister. She was 16 in the 1980s, in love and chased after this 20 yr old douche-bag until he finally relented and went out with her. A few years later, with kid in tow, they broke up and she wanted the courts and judge to have him arrested for initially molesting her (because of her age). Divorce can be a hateful thing. The court did not see it her way. He’s actually a good man, and has always paid support and visited my niece. He’s just a regular dad.

      • Anon4now 12:23 am on September 20, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        Statute of limitations comes into play. And, it appears that many dependants of Vietnam and Vietnam-era veterans just don’t get to live with their parents, end of story and a reason why never to lose a war. As ridiculous as it seems for a seemingly stable couple to abandon their child to a porn star, it may have been simple in a way if Holmes really was a veteran. And that’s an “if.”

        Additionally, the California legal age of consent was lessened from 21 to 18 in 1971, if I remember right. The rationale was that if a person was old enough to get drafted and sent into war, that person should be old enough to behave as an adult. That was a rather broad statement; if I remember right, the legal drinking age was 21 (as it is now) and the same with smoking, both those remained unchanged, but I might be wrong on the latter point. And that was the problem: maybe some people didn’t know if they were legal or not at the time. I remember when the law got passed, and I didn’t think much about it then, but I don’t remember why not. I don’t remember my parents or anyone else’s parents talking about it, and actually very few of my school chums.

        But anyway, statutory rape statute of limitations has long since expired for any contact in that era (’70s and ’80s) that wasn’t between teen girls and Catholics, as we’ve been reading in the papers. Non-violent contact, maybe even with the parent’s knowledge if not their explicit consent, was sort of overlooked then. Not really condoned, I guess, but there goes all the hippie girls to the Grateful Dead concerts and coming home pregnant. Dead head for sure.

        And, if no criminal charges are ever timely filed, and if the statute of limitations has expired, constant mention of a subject like might actually be harassment and slander. Except in Holme’s case there’s photographic evidence, isn’t there?

        Personally, all the best wishes to Schiller. But working at an university in Oregon; is that the best employment for a woman with her experiences? Sex and drug registration laws are strictly enforced in California now, and if Holmes would ever have been prosecuted for his relationship with Schiller, he would have had to register as a sex offender for life. Registration laws here are no joke: Sex offender registration is for life, drug offender isn’t, as the first is Penal Code, the latter Health & Safety and simply expires after a certain time period. Holmes would have had to register as both had he not have been such a snitch when he was busted. But, that’s where the idiocy of the state’s citizenry comes into play, as the citizens who follow registration don’t know the difference in the laws, to them all is unending registration that a felon must endure for the rest of his (or her) life unless they tell.

        And that’s how important this Holmes trial was, how much impact it had on the state’s legislation. It really changed things; so many laws have been altered it’s hard to keep track of it all if you didn’t have a hint somewhere along the line. People watch this movie and read Schiller’s stories, and they say “Not again!” And that’s the end of casual contact with California women, sung about so much by the Beach Boys. Drug offender registration isn’t just for opiates (like Lind and Barbara are shown doing so much of. They’d be registered offenders, too), it’s for supplying pot to minors. Simple pot smokers don’t always escape the registration game even with the new legalization movement. This movie hits home on California legislation and court procedure in a vital time period: Shortly after the end of Vietnam, and less than a decade from the lessening of the state’s legal age of consent. Total confusion, and with all the money behind Holmes’ profession, and all the impact that Lind brought with him, the state got put into even more of a spin with this Wonderland trial. But that’s all part of the game, too.

        Why doesn’t Schiller work at a California university? And please post this, John. There’s nothing inflammatory in it and it touches on some important California issues that led to the confusion of the ’70s and later decades.

    • localarts 8:33 pm on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Big Time! Guys are sent to prison for this kind of thing every day.

    • jimmy---chicago 8:38 pm on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      My mind was blown the other day . I looked on the sex offender list on line no matter where you live thet are everyware litterally .Type in your address its crazy

    • Brandy 10:50 pm on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      If Dawn needs money, Dawn will find material for another book.

    • Jim 9:49 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      What people need to remember is that when someone (and we all do this) is telling of an incident(s) they were involved in they always try to cast themselves in the best light. In Dawn’s case the “best light” is the role of complete victim. This is not to excuse Holmes. What he did to her in 1975 was terrible and illegal. However people need to realize that Dawn did not remain 15 years old from 1975 to 1981. She was making the same type of choices in 1975 that she was making in 1981. Keep in mind Dawn was 20 or 21 when she chose to return to LA from Oregon to go back to Holmes soon before the Wonderland incident.

    • localarts 10:28 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      My thoughts exactly Jim. Although, I believe it was 1976.

  • John 8:52 am on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply
    Tags: gerry brown,   

    Old Article Shows Location of Governor Brown’s House 

    Early news reports indicated that Governor Jerry Brown’s house was “right around the corner” from Wonderland. Well, I had never been able to locate his home in Laurel Canyon, but according to this old map, it truly is “right around the corner”.

    I would like to have been a fly on the wall at Jerry’s breakfast table that morning when he cracked open the newspaper to see his private home shown on a map with two famous murder scenes.

    July 3, 1981. Associated Press.

    July 3, 1981. Associated Press.

     
    • localarts 9:40 am on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      I bet Jerry shit a brick when he read that. I wonder if he moved to the “valley” afterwards.

      • Bobby 1:57 am on February 19, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        I reckon Eddie Nash shat an even bigger brick when he found out that a woman had survived the attacks and there were detectives by her bedside! 😉

    • Gayle 9:52 pm on August 3, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Noguchi was definitely the LA coroner at the right time! Cool newspaper clip!

  • John 7:22 am on February 14, 2014 Permalink | Reply
    Tags: , michael woods, mike woods,   

    Horace “Big Mac” McKenna Featured On New TV Show 

    “Tell my mother I love her”.   –Big Mac’s last words to his chaffeur

    Horace “Big Mac” McKenna has been discussed here in the past. He was a former CHiP (highway patrol cop) and a strip club and night club owner in L.A. He was known to have been an associate or at least knew Ron Launius. The two possibly met while in jail in Southern California in either 1977 or 78, as Ron’s sentence was winding down after his transfer from McNeil Island Federal Penitentiary to a unit in SoCal. But that’s just my speculation, based on Ronnie’s timeline and discussions with members of this blog. Ron may have also known McKenna’s partner, Mike Woods, or Woods’ buddy and later business partner, a former bouncer named David Amos.

    Big Mac’s murder and the events that happened at the end of his life will be featured on a new Investigation Discovery crime show hosted by Jerry Springer. So far, the new series has received good reviews from viewer comments that I have read. This new show is called “Tabloid”. And Horace’s episode is titled “Ex-Cop X’ed!”. Check out the preview video here. I believe this episode will be featured next Thursday, Feb. 20 at 10pm eastern time. Check your local cable or satellite listings. Discovery ID/Investigation Discovery.

    A year or two before his murder in the mid 80s, the men who conspired to kill Horace also produced a few B-movies, or straight-to-video films, one of them titled “Flipping” had a similar plot and murder scene as Horace’s real-life demise. 

    The two (McKenna and Woods) quickly rose in the strip club universe and, within only three years, were owners of the “Valley Ball” in Van Nuys, and “Bare Elegance” and the “Jet Strip” in Los Angeles and were wealthy, powerful men.  –Carbon Canyon Chronicle

    There is also an episode from the series City Confidential about Horace, titled “Silenced Partner”. I have watched City Confidential before… but, I don’t know if that show is still aired regularly. Help me out if you find it, post a link. I have not seen “Silenced Partner”.

    Go to the Carbon Canyon Chronicle to read the entire McKenna story and to see reader comments, some of which claim to have known Big Mac or these other gents.

    A few photos from Big Mac’s funeral in 1989. It was a media circus.

     
    • localarts 11:43 am on February 15, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Will definitely watch it. They might have a different take on McKenna than City Confidential. Damn, I feel sorry for that horse.

    • Ray Johnson 5:04 pm on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      I was stationed with Big Mac (Hoss back then) in Guam 1961-62 and El Toro where he won the Mr El Toro contest in 1963. We trained for Vietnam but were never sent. I was Big Mac’s workout partner. We always backed each other up in many fights. He was a great friend – very loyal.

    • McKenna Vaughan 1:07 pm on March 11, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      @Ray, Yes Horace was Very Loyal! If he didn’t like you, you damned well knew it! And knew why.. Never in my life had I met anyone like Him!!!

  • John 12:42 pm on February 12, 2014 Permalink | Reply
    Tags: ,   

    The Real Eddie Nash? 

    There will always be speculation about Eddie Nash, what he was really like, etc. I’ve touched on that topic before and every so often I get an email or see a post on YouTube or the Wonderland Wikipedia “Talk” page with comments like “You didn’t even know Eddie, he was awesome”. Or, “…he paid his employees top dollar and rewarded loyalty to good workers”, and so on. A few have claimed that “they invaded his home, they deserved what they got! I would have done the same thing to those dopers”. I can just see Ed thinking post-robbery that “my life has come to this? I’m  a fucking loser” LOL. He was quite pissed off! as Detective Tom Lange told Julia Negron.

    So Ed had some good qualities. I don’t doubt that a bit. Just read the blog posts from Lee who worked at the Starwood. If we look at this excerpt from John Gilmore’s book, “Scary Monsters and Super Freaks”, we get a clear view of the Nash from the late 50s and early 60s era, when he owned the hot dog stand and before he became co-owner of PJ’s Night Club (this location later became the Starwood in the 1970s). I think that in between owning the hot dog stand and PJ’s, Eddie also owned and ran a Lebanese Cafe.

    However, in all of the famous articles and books about Wonderland, nobody ever mentions his marriage and family life. Legs McNeil touches on it via an interview with club owner, Chris Cox, but there are no details. So if Ed met John Holmes in the late 70s, then Ed had already begun his downward spiral into drugs, women, partying, etc. Also, his divorce was finalized exactly ONE MONTH after the murders. Ed was in a bad place to be messed with. The Wonderland guys picked a VERY bad time to rob Eddie via home invasion. Lest we forget also, that Eddie received karma as well. His illegitimate son was stabbed to death, along with Ed’s ex-girlfriend, by that biker guy in the mid 80s.

    The last paragraph which lists Eddie’s ailments and stuff… most of that happened to him post-Wonderland. For, he looks rather healthy in the 1981 era photos.

    Nice Guy Eddie.

    Nice Guy Eddie.

     
    • localarts 4:50 pm on February 12, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      I remember reading a story about June Schuyler & Nash. Nash seemed to display empathy and kindness toward her son but at the same time you have to remember Eddie Nash projected himself the way he wanted to be seen by others. In the end, I think Nash threatened to kill Schuyler entire family.

      Nash was a bad guy and drugs only amplified this. Same with Holmes.

      • John 7:35 am on February 14, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        Yes, there is another occasion where Nash threatened to kill his ex-wife and her entire family if she did not bring the kids back to LA. “Don’t come back to LA, I will have someone kill you at the airport” (based on interview with Mrs. Nash by Legs McNeil)

    • jimmy---chicago 9:16 pm on February 12, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      In the movie the robbery of eddie nash looked a little ruff but I read in this blog that Ronnie started to cut Diles with a knife ,now that would freak the shit out of anybody .You are not just getting robbed but fucked with possably a little torture and wasent it Ronnie who wanted to kill a maid in the bath tub on another robbery .They made there bed and had to lay in it .I am in no way saying they deserved it but then again I have never had my home invaded an smacked around in the process Diles and Nash probably thought that they were going to kill them and when it was over they probably felt a sigh of relief and fuck this I wont let this ever happen to me again.Billy and Ronnie should have been up all night
      being on guard how stupid I bet nash was more carefull about his security after that. Tony Accardo the godfather of the chicago mob was robbed in the early eighties around same time as wonderland and he had all the mob burglers tortured and killed involved or not just to set a presidence not to fuck with the big man so be careful on who you screw over

      • criticextraordinaire 5:36 am on February 13, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        “I am in no way saying they deserved it”… I’ll say it then. There are some crimes that call for ruthless street justice and what happened to Eddie is one of those times. Ronnie and Billy got what they had coming. Break into a guy’s house, put a gun at him, shoot his bodyguard, snort lines off his daughter’s vanity mirror, steal his money and dope… You’re asking for it.

      • John 7:34 am on February 14, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        Yes, as localarts said once, Diles had a rough morning. Got grazed by Lind’s accidental gun fire and then Ronnie tried to dry shave him with a Rambo type knife. LOL.

    • localarts 7:11 am on February 13, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Whether or not they deserved it is beside the point. Like Leggs McNeil said, the mistake they made was not killing Nash & Diles. Holmes deserved to die for being stupid enough to suggest the home invasion robbery to begin with and of course his involvement in the murders themselves.

      • criticextraordinaire 7:26 pm on February 13, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        I agree with you there, localarts. Ronnie slipped up by not finishing off Eddie & Greg. He knew better and it ended up costing him his life. If you pull that sort of crap on a guy like Eddie, you better be prepared to go all the way, ’cause he’s gonna come after you with everything he’s got.

        • Bobby 12:16 am on February 14, 2014 Permalink

          It’s utterly confounding that the Wonderland gang didn’t do more to avoid the retribution that was undoubtedly coming their way. They had to know that Nash wasn’t gonna take it lying down, hence why they were contemplating skipping town. They also had to know Holmes would squeal once Nash got a hold of him so why the hell did they continue to stay in contact with him? He wasn’t to be trusted, period. Don’t let him into your apartment in the early hours of the morning!! Nash would’ve taken all of 3 seconds to work out that Holmes was behind it all! Real amateur mistakes that ended up costing their lives. There’s a very good chance that they could’ve gotten away with the robbery but instead they got lazy and complacent and totally screwed everything.

        • localarts 7:31 am on February 14, 2014 Permalink

          “You Better Cancel Christmas” —- Gregory Dewitt Diles.

    • jimmy---chicago 8:13 pm on February 13, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Eddie is no different than most not all risky businesses owners.By risky I mean dive bars ,clubs,strip joints and liquor stores the type of places that most people dont care about even law enforcement dosent car about the well being of these places .The video poker machines, pool tables and juke boxes
      are usually supplied by mob owned amusement companies .You can’t come off as mr rogers when you have these type of businesses the people you have to deal with just to get up and running are going to see how far they can go with you .Mabe you opned a joint in someones territory and now you have to pay some wiseguy asshole a monthly fee to even open up .Eddie is also a product of his environment he comes from a place that stone women that have been raped ,cut off hands of thieves and other awfull things .Its called Middle eastern justice and there are a lot of immigrents in this country
      who want sharia law here. So these people are all over the place . How many murderers did you walk past today and said hi .Mabe you like to get hi where did it come from whose hands touched it first.Any way Eddie is no mystery we all deal with his type every day.I also think like ronnie his reputation keeps growing .I dont believe ronnie killed 27 people and I dont believe the 40 acres in the desert story with eddie but I do believe eddie did wonderland and ronnie probably did the mexico thing and mabe someone else . Enough of my rambling 4 to day

      • localarts 12:03 pm on February 14, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        I have always had trouble with Ronnie and the 27 murders. I don’t know about everybody else on this forum but I have followed or read about Wonderland since the 1980’s and I had never read or heard about the 27 a ledged murders until Long Time Money & Lots of Cocaine came out. As far as I know, that the only published account to makes these claims about Launius.

        If I’m not mistaken, the 40 acres of desert property story was told to James Cox via someone who worked for the LAPD during that time period. It may or may not be true but I wouldn’t put it past Eddie to have at least 5 acres!! Even though it’s extremely difficult to believe anything John Holmes say’s, Holmes, Schiller and Scott Thorson all made references to “people disappearing in the desert”

        You make some very good points Jimmy C.

        • criticextraordinaire 7:32 pm on February 14, 2014 Permalink

          I think the bidding STARTS with 27. Remember, when the news got out that Ronnie was dead, cops all over California were celebrating. I read somewhere (maybe it was here) that one cop mentioned of Ronnie’s funeral “Well he won’t need many pall bearers”, and when asked to elaborate he said “A trash can only has two handles”. Ronnie outsmarted all the cops though, and I suppose that’s why they hated him, the one who always got away. The only man in California who could bring him down was Eddie Nash… and himself.

        • jimmy---chicago 10:31 pm on February 14, 2014 Permalink

          It seems like cox took a lot of liberties and here are some examples 1. DAVID LIND IN MOVIE SAID NO WITNESSES , I THINK THAT NILS DUDE SAID IT WAS RONNIE THAT SAID NO WITNESSES WITH THAT ROBBERY THAT THE MAID WAS IN BATH TUB 2.IN THE BACKGROUND IN MOVIE WHEN THEY SHOW RONNIE (JOSH LUCAS) WHILE DAVID IS BEING INTERAGATED THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME KIND OF OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT THAT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT MENTAL ILLNESS AND SOMETHING ABOUT NOT RESPECTING AUTHORITY(my words cant remember exact wording in movie) Well he joined the air force they didnt draft him and daddio was in airforce so he knew what it was all about and he was discharged honerably so see what I mean. I BET THAT EITHER SUSAN LAUNIUS COULD SUE FOR THE WAY THEY PORTRAID HER AND RONNIES FAMILY ALONG WITH LINDS FAMILY COULD DO THE SAME ALSO. THE MOVIE CASINO ALL THE NAMES WERE CHANGED AND THE SCENE WHERE DUDES EYE POPS OUT HAPPNED IN CHICAGO THAT WAS IN 60S THAT WAS CALLED THE M&M MURDERS IT IS ON THE INTERNET LOOK IT UP MARTY SCORCEZY(I CANT SPELL) SAID IT WAS A NIGHTMARE HE WOULD HAVE TO GET ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE RELATED TO THOSE WHO WERE PORTRAYED IN MOVIE TO SIGN OFF ON IT BECAUSE THE MOB WOULD AND FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE MOB WOULD SUE THE NEWS PAPERS OVER STORIES THAT WERE PROBABLY TRUE BUT NOT PROVEN. THE MOVIE CASINO WAS ABOUT THE SPILOTRO BROTHERS AND GAMBELING ACE LEFTY ROSENTHALL AND THE REST OF THE OUTFIT(THE NAME GIVEN BY CAPONE FOR OUR BRANCH OF THE MOB) THE WHOLE MOVIE WAS ABOUT HOW THE OUTFIT RUNS EVERYTHING WEST OF THE MISSISSIPPI AND THEY LET NEW YORK HAVE ATLANTIC CITY. WELL EVERY NAME WAS CHANGED AND EVENTS WERE SCREWED WITH BECAUSE OF LAW SUITS.SO HOW DID COX GET AWAY WITH IT.

    • Bobby 12:40 am on February 14, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Can’t say I much believe the 40 acres in the desert story either. From what I understand Eddie was a businessman first (a pretty good one by the looks of things!) and a “gangster” second. Really though, what more do we know about the gangster side of Eddie? Did he used to rough up people himself or have his heavies do this sorta dirty work? Did he ever have anyone killed? Did he ever have anyone kneecapped? Why did he have a bodyguard.. had he amassed quite a few enemies that he needed protecting from? Other than hearing the media continually refer to him as a Nightclub owner and gangster I have yet to come across any solid evidence (other than the Wonderland crime) to support the latter labelling. Anyone care to shine some light on this? Perhaps I missed an entry here on this blog re: Eddie nefarious gangsterism…

    • localarts 10:13 am on February 15, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Yeah, James Cox embellished a few things for “dramatic effect” there’s no doubt about that. When David Lind went to the police, Tom Lange said Lind was popping uppers & downers during the interview. When Lind was told Barbara Richardson was dead, Lange said David Lind threw a chair across the room or something like that. This of course was never in the movie but should have!

    • localarts 6:07 pm on February 15, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Wow Critic. At least 27?? Out of curiosity, why do you believe that? I mean were talking Ted Bundy type numbers!

      • criticextraordinaire 7:27 pm on February 15, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        Well you have to figure that if the known total was 27, there were probably a few others that the cops never found out about. Like the dudes in Mexico who unwisely kidnapped Susan. The cops would not have cared about those guys.

        • jimmy---chicago 9:25 am on February 16, 2014 Permalink

          Do we even know if the mexico thing really happned.In the Nils interview he said or refered to that mexico thing as overglorified (what does that mean) are we talking about a deal with a couple of shady mexicans over the border that went bad.Every time I hear this story it involves a drug cartel .This is where it turns into a big fish story. What did he do come busting in like the guns of navarone bazuka in one hand and a 50 calaber in the other swinging in through the window with the rope clinched between his teeth.He wasent Rambo and how does this fit into the timeline?This to me would be the biggest story or the most interesting story of ronnie .Now we get to the 27 murders . Who are the 27 and just because ronnie was murdered that dosent stop an investigation let alone 27 investigations this would be a big deal and a promotion for the person who solves 27 murders and ties it to one person.Also who was he doing hits for another drug dealer well if he has 27 dead beat customers he’s outta business and if ronnie did all of the above that I Briefly touched on he never would have been so stupid to get murdered in his sleep. I dont think susan would have been around for wonderland if the mexico thing really went down I could be wrong.I have reason to believe susan was trying to dump ronnie while he was in jail for those years.She realized that she was not going anyware with ronnie .The guy steals for a living and would not be able to consistantly provide for her .Well thats what I think.

        • criticextraordinaire 2:18 pm on February 16, 2014 Permalink

          Jimmy it’s called “codependency”. People who stick around somebody who is obviously bad for them. Either because they think they can’t do better (low self esteem), or because they feel it is their duty to try and “change” the malefactor (messiah complex). Happens all the time. There are codependency rehab counselors making a career out of this all over the country.

          I don’t think Ronnie would have done the guns of Navarone routine. He would have been discreet, taking out the opposition one by one. Each guy would, however, know who did him in and why. After all, the Mexican thing was about revenge, not business. But its hard to tell exactly what happened because all the Mexican guys are dead and so is Ronnie.

        • criticextraordinaire 5:27 pm on February 16, 2014 Permalink

          Plus, Ronnie was probably a pretty good provider. I mean, he got out of the military in ’72 I think and was able to make a living up until July of ’81. His line of business can get you lots of money (unless you violate “Rule Number One” which seems to have been the gang’s problem). If you get his sort of notoriety it’s because you are scoring money. Yeah he served some time in jail during that time period but you have to income-average. She could have done worse.

    • localarts 6:38 pm on February 16, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Critic, as much as you want to believe these stories about Launius and yes it does make for a fascinating tale, there really is no evidence to substantiate it. In 1972 an undercover narcotics officers had various dealings with Launius in Sacramento (it never stated he was arrested for dealing)

      Launius was however arrested later in 72 for weapons possession in another part of Northern California.
      I can’t remember the city though. The problem I have with the 27 potential homicides committed by Launius is…why did the police only mention 1? It’s been over 32 years since Ronnie took a dirt nap and still there has never been any mention of the 27 murders in reference to Ron Launius by any branch of law enforcement, at least not in printed format.

      I think it’s safe to say Launius spent a majority of the 1970’s either in jail, federal prison or some half way house. 70, 71, 72 USAF. 73 busted for narcotics trafficking, makes bail and flees to Mexico. 74, 75,76,77,78 incarcerated. I have no idea when in 78 he was released, but he gains his freedom in 1978.

      I’m thinking that if this was in fact true then Wonderland would have been an even bigger story back in 81. “Ronald Launius suspected in at least 27 murders was one of four people found bludgeoned to death” Now how’s that for a headline!

      Ronald Lee Launius may very well have murdered 27 or more people but allot of things surrounding this just don’t make sense??

      • criticextraordinaire 7:30 pm on February 16, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        Well of course it kinda got swept under the rug. What were the cops gonna say? “Hey this guy we suspect of all these crimes, the only person who could pinch him was Eddie Nash.” While they were happy to see their nemesis’ demise, they were also embarrassed; they never did catch their target. Then Eddie embarrassed them some more. They couldn’t even convict Johnny Wad.

        Besides, I would imagine most if not all of the 27 were unsavory characters. They only wanted Ronnie because of his main line of business anyway. Once Ronnie was dead, they had more pressing issues.

      • John 8:12 am on February 18, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        Ron was quite teflon himself. He beat gun and drug charges in the early 70s. He was acquitted. I wonder who his lawyer was? Anyhoo, in reading Ron’s appeal for his smuggling conviction, he may have had the conviction reversed on appeal if he had not plead guilty (if I read that legal document correctly). That case regarding “double jeopardy” has been cited over the years by other cases. The key is, not to plead guilty though.

    • jimmy---chicago 4:44 pm on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Street wise, joint wise, and con wise.But not wise enough to stay alert after stealing all that shit fron nash

    • John 5:22 pm on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      Being con-wise and such, Ron and Bill should have known Holmes would fuck it all up. But, with all the dope and nrwfound wealth, they were not thinking clearly.

    • localarts 5:22 pm on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

      The gang was planning on fleeing to Hawaii but partied too long on Nash’s stash, big mistake. The gang should have purchased their airline tickets in advance and Ronnie should have told Cherokee to have everybody’s luggage waiting for them at LAX. Joy & Barbara tell Holmes they are going to the canyon country store to get some smokes (there really headed to the Hilton) McCourt drives straight to the airport form Nash’s house. The gang rents a room at the Hilton, everybody gets their cut, and they party till the sun comes up the following morning, have breakfast and casually board a flight to Maui.

      All the time Holmes is still waiting at 8763 wondering WTF.

      • criticextraordinaire 6:31 pm on February 17, 2014 Permalink | Reply

        And yet there was John Holmes, still alive. John was a survivor and he was surviving.

    • Jeremy 3:10 pm on January 22, 2015 Permalink | Reply

      Deserve has nothing to do with it. If you associate with known murderer’s and drug dealers, and make no mistake about it, Nash was both. Let’s not forget that the rumors surrounding Nash at the time involved him lobbying head’s off and barring them in the desert. True or not, at the least a cause for pause. So they had to have known that what transpired was real possibility. On the other hand if Nash was such a great guy as said article implies, then who sends someone to murder other human beings, regardless of what offensive was layed at his feet. He didn’t just have the people who robbed him killed. There are two victims that for all intense purposes had nothing to do with the robbery. Let’s not forget that!!

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